Saddle Up to Healing: Inside Equine Therapy with Expert Equine Therapy Coach Sue Willoughby

Whoa Nelly! Did you know Equine therapy can increase self-esteem, decrease stress and depression and help you address your issues surrounding boundaries? Host of She's Brave Podcast, Kristina Driscoll does.
 
Tune into this podcast episode with expert Equine Therapy Coach Sue Willoughby as she shares the transformative journey of equine therapy. Kristina and Sue delve into how working with horses has profoundly impacted their mental and emotional well-being. Through heartfelt stories and personal anecdotes, these Brave Women highlight the unique bond between humans and horses, illustrating the therapeutic benefits of equine interactions.

About Sue:
Sue Willoughby is the Founder of Willoughby Coaching, where women over 40 confront their obstacles and change the trajectory of their lives through the power of Equus Coaching. Equus Coaching emphasizes the profound impact of non-verbal communication and self-awareness as clients engage with horses, gaining insights into their leadership, communication style, and personal growth. Sue took great comfort in working with horses during some of the darkest, most difficult periods of her life, and she now finds fulfillment in being the kind of mentor she wished she had in the past. 

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Transcript

Kristina:
Hey, everyone. It's Kristina with the She's Brave podcast. Are you feeling blocked? What if I told you there's a form of therapy out there that you don't even know exists right now, that might be able to help you unblock yourself in a very unique way?  If conventional therapy just isn't working for you, let me tell you about some of the benefits of equine therapy.

Yeah, I said it, equine therapy! Did you know that the interaction between horse and client often unlocks blocked emotions, allowing them to be processed and healed? Did you know that a recent article in 'Psychology Today' discusses a number of ways people benefit from equine therapy.

Listen to this, you guys: Increased trust. Reduced anxiety, less feelings of depression and isolation, increased self-esteem, self-acceptance, and social skills, better impulse control, increased problem solving. Improved communication skills, including non-verbal. Listen to this one, guys: Better understanding of healthy boundaries and the importance of assertiveness.

Now, whoooa, Nellie, you guys! Okay. I had to put that in there. Sorry. I'm so freaking corny. If you're thinking, you'll never get me on the back of a horse. What if I told you, you don't even need to get on the back of the horse. You just need to be in the presence of a horse.  Did you also know that equine therapy can provide an effective physical and emotional experience that can be very difficult to achieve through conventional therapy? It doesn't always work.

Today's guest is Sue Willoughby, an Equine Assisted Life Coach. Welcome Sue!

Sue: Hi, Kristina. How are you today? Thank you so much for having me on the show.

Kristina: I'm so, so excited to have you today. This is a very exciting and powerful topic. And Sue. As I just told you before we hit record, the reason why I'm so excited is I actually have experience of greatly benefiting from this type of therapy.

So, I want to share this with my audience. So, you guys, most of you know that I'm widowed and remarried, but when my husband had early onset Alzheimer's, I actually went to an equine therapy program down in Arizona.  And it was life changing for me. In fact, it was so life changing that I came home and
signed up for horseback riding lessons at my nearest barn. I ended up leasing a horse. Yes, it's a thing you can actually like, lease a horse. It's not super expensive. It's a way cheaper way of getting access to horses and did that for five whole years. And it was all during my husband's decline. And it was a very, very healing, helpful experience.

Sometimes my quote "lessons" were just riding down a quiet country lane, literally. And that was my therapy and I have a couple of other magical stories. I want to share about my own experience with equine therapy and other people before I let Sue rip and tell us all about her stuff. She's being so patient in the background here, folks! But during COVID...

My own brother had diverticulitis and he had a puncture in his intestines. He got septicemia and he was hospitalized in Canada. Canada was way more locked down when we were. His own wife couldn't visit him alone in the hospital, almost died.  He had no access to human contact other than doctors and nurses.

I would go to the barn and send him videos, of me playing and feeding my horse, other horses. And he said that that was one of the most healing things during his time alone in the hospital. I myself would go to the barn sometimes on an almost daily basis just to hang out with the horses because it helped me feel better.

At one point, one of my barn friends came home from work one day. Her husband was dead. After she called the ambulance and the police and all the hubbub and all the shock and everything had happened, and everybody left... She got in her car and drove to the barn and spent hours at the barn with barn friends and horses.

This, you guys, is the power of equine therapy. This is it. So, guys, this is so exciting. We've got Sue here today. Sue actually lives pretty close to me. She's an hour and a half South of me in Seattle. We haven't met in person, but we're going to meet. So, Sue, I want, I want you to just kind of walk us through a little bit more about what exactly is equine therapy, like what a typical session looks like and, for my skeptical listeners out there, they're probably thinking, why should I consider this form of therapy? 

Sue: That's a great question. And also thank you for sharing your experience, your equine stories, uh, with your friend and yourself, and your brother and it is just being in their presence because there's such amazing animals that it really does- Yeah. So, thank you for that. Um, well, it's interesting that you ask that question because as you mentioned, there's no riding, so you're really just in their orbit, so to speak. And doing a session at Marival, you know what it feels like to just be with the horse.

So, for example. I'll have a client, and they'll be in a round pen or an arena, with the horse and the horse is at liberty, meaning that it doesn't have a halter or a lead rope. So, you're not physically connected to the horse. It's more of an energy connection. And I will, allow them to move the horse around if that feels good to them. Um, and you're like, how do you move a horse around, right? When you're not touching it or-or whatever.

Kristina: Yeah. How do you, how do you?

Sue: With your energy. And that sounds weirder too, right? Like, now your skeptical listeners are like, oh boy, this woman is crazy. But they can use a long line, which is just a long sort of a rope that they can use to extend their energy out, they can toss it towards the horse.

They can just flap it or do whatever to get the horse to kind of extend their personal energy. Because some people can be really small, energetically and be inside themselves. I do a demo and - a safety demo so that everybody is, you know, when they go in there with the horse.

And it is one person and one horse at a time.  We don't have like five people and five horses running around all at the same time, 'cause that would just be crazy. So one person, one horse, and then, I'm on the outside of the arena, um, and I'm observing the horse's behavior. Yeah. As the person is interacting with the horse, they're giving me very specific feedback about what they're getting from the person.

Kristina: Yeah. Yeah. It's absolutely fascinating. I mean, I, I know I, I've read about an actual scientific study where they were measuring the heart rate of a human and a horse. And then you put the human and the horse in the same space, you know, barn stall or whatever. And the horse will match the human's heart rate.

Have you heard about that study before?

Sue: Well, I've experienced that because I've also done, um, equine massage. So, when I'm working on a horse, uh, doing body work on the horse, um, I'm holding space for the horse and very, often our breathing and our heart rate will sync up.  And they can also sense that if a person is presenting outwardly a certain way, um, whether it's, you know, You know, trying to mask fear or something else, the horse can detect what is really going on inside the person, their heart rate, their, you know, all of that, you know, the, your bio rhythms and everything. And if the horse is sensing the incongruency, they don't care if you're afraid, right? They don't care if you're mad, but just be honest, right? That's all they ask for is honesty and the incongruency can really, you know, keep them, at bay.

Kristina: Yeah. Yeah. So I'm sure you've had clients who have never been around horses, they are huge animals and I'm sure that you have a client who goes into that ring for the first time and is feeling very terrified, which the horse is going to pick up on. How do you try to get that person to calm down? Because if you can't get the person, calm down the horse, as we said, the horse is very neutral. The horse is very accepting. That's the beautiful part, right? The horse isn't going to judge you. The horse isn't like, 'I don't like you because you're too uptight'. Or 'I do like you because you're this,' or you're, you know, They're not like humans, right? They're just going to accept us exactly and meet us where we're at. So how do you get somebody, maybe, who's starting to feel real' panicky? Well, what are some of the steps that you're going to take with that person?

Sue: Well, you're absolutely right. The horse will pick up your energy. They don't care if you are afraid, but if you and that fear is really huge and it's just.  Um, coming out of you, then the horse is going to mirror that, and the horse may run around. And of course, then that escalates the person's, you know, heart rate or whatever.

If I know that that is going to be an issue or sense that it's going to be an issue, we'll start very slowly. So we'll just have them, you know, I may hold the horse and maybe they're just brushing it or approaching it in a certain way, um, until they feel that. Yeah. It's okay. I don't just go, 'Okay. Get in the arena'.

Kristina: Okay. Okay. Yeah. That makes total sense. Yeah. You can start out with things like you holding the horse, rushing the horse leading. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And take little baby steps like that.

Sue: There's a ton of exercises to do, um, and because you don't, want to obviously put someone in a position where they feel fear.

And a lot of people will say, Oh, I'm so afraid of horses. They're so big and they're so powerful and they're prey animals. Most people don't realize that.

Kristina: I didn't realize it. I didn't realize that when I started riding, there was so much I didn't know about horses.

Sue: Yeah.

Kristina: I thought they were like dogs. They are nothing like dogs.  Nothing. Okay Sue, I want to quote you. You have said, "Horses are very intuitive. They will present what the person is putting out that they don't even know that they're putting out. So they act as a really amazing mirror to what is happening because they can sense incongruency. They sense our bio rhythms. They know how fast your heart is beating. So if someone is standing there saying, 'Oh, I'm not afraid.

I'm good. I'm good'. And the horse is like, 'Oh, hell no. I'm just going to stand over here until you're done'. This is the horse. Saying to itself, and you can be congruent with what's really going on inside. And when the person finally relaxes and settles down and comes into their body, the horse will come right over.

And this shift has been proven scientifically".  Yeah.

Sue:
And that's a little bit about what we were discussing just a minute ago when you asked about, you know, if somebody comes in and they're very fearful and they're whatever.  I do a lot of times before someone actually starts the interaction while the horse is just kind of wandering around taking care of itself, whatever it's doing, it might be rolling in the dirt or whatever.

I will ask them to do a grounding exercises and take some deep breaths, and feel more into their body, feel their feet on the ground and get them more into their body. And a lot of times what will happen is when somebody is having a hard time interacting with the horse. They're like, 'I'm trying to get the horse to move and I just, it won't move. And it doesn't like me,' and blah, blah, blah, all kinds, all those stories start to roll out, right? And I'm like, okay. Um, and then I asked them, you know, I mean, it gives me an opportunity to ask them, well, 'Why are you saying that? Why do you think that the horse is feeling a certain way?' I mean, they're transferring their stuff onto the horse basically.

And about the fear thing or the incongruency. Horses are prey animals, like I just said. And when they sense something that could potentially harm them -and by that, it might be that mixed energy, right? That this is how I want to present myself to the world, and this is what's really going on inside.

And the horse doesn't care what you're presenting. It cares what it sees inside.  So when it does, you know, sense that you're being congruent -and like I said, even if you're still fearful or if you're sad or if you're happy or if you're whatever- if you're being honest with yourself, um, then the horse can sense that, and the horse will be more inclined to interact with you.

And a lot of that comes from their herd behavior, right? They're herd animals and they really need to know that they can feel safe with their herd or a person or, you know, some sort of interaction. And if they're feeling like, you're not giving them some sort of safety vibe, they can be like, well, okay, I'm going to just stay over here until you can feel more comfortable with yourself, and then I'll interact with you. Because that's really their goal in life is just to stay alive. You know, all of the horses that we interact with at the riding stable and in their cushy stalls or their paddocks or whatever.

I mean, they're still herd animals. You know, you can take your horse out for a lesson, right? Or a trail ride or whatever.  And if they're herd bound, they could be chatting with their, their pals back at the barn by, you know, winning the whole time they're on the ride. Like, well, help me. I'm out here by myself.

Right.  Hey, hey, Joe. 

Kristina: I've, I've seen that too, where they call out to each other.

Sue: Yeah. And it's really funny, but there are some horses that are extremely herd bound and they don't want to be away from their buddies for whatever reason, but they have friendships and, you know, so, when you're with them, you're part of their herd, so they need to know.

Where do we all fit into this little herd group, even if there's two of us in here, the horse and the person, right? Are you a leader? Or am I the leader? And they work that out with each other in the past year and so forth. 

Kristina: Okay. So, I've got a question for you. So, what if I came to you as a client and, you know, I'm going to give a very generic kind of female issue that a lot of my listeners may have.

So, I come to you Sue and I say, I'm really struggling with people pleasing. And self-esteem issues. So, I want to schedule a session with you. And so, I do, and I go into the ring. Um, how do you think I'm going to react? Like, what are some of the things that that I'm going to behave and how is the horse going to behave? And then how are you going to help with that? 

Sue: That's interesting. That's a good one and I think if you've read Wyatt's book 'It's Not About the Horse'.

Kristina: Yeah. What am I? Yeah. So, listeners out there, you guys, I took Wyatt Webb's course at Miraval. He's actually since retired. I just looked him up.  He's retired, but he's written a really great book called, 'It's Not About the Horse: It's About Overcoming Fear and Self-doubt'. That's actually the technical title of his book, but he's an amazing human who basically does what you do as well. 

Sue: I think he's a licensed therapist as well, but it's interesting because there's this one passage in there and I witnessed this myself, where if you're a people pleaser and you just want people to like you and people will enter into the arena and sort of just like, go after the horse.

They want the horse to like them. They're like, nice horsey, nice horsey, petting and the horse is like, Whoa, you're coming on a little too strong. I mean, if you did that with a person, you just went up to them and we're touching their face and getting really close and trying to give them a hug. So, in this instance, that was you, before you went in, I would ask you what your intention was and maybe it was whatever your intention is for this. And in other words, when you're done with this situation or when you're done with the session, would you like to take away?

Okay.  So, you may say, I have low self-esteem and I'm a people pleaser and that's pretty common. I think we all are to some degree, right? Or, and some to more of a degree, and that's a tough one because we want people to like us.  We don't want people to judge us. We are harshly judging ourselves.

So, even when you walk in there with a horse, you think, Oh my God, I want this horse to like me so badly. I want this interaction to go well. So you bring all that anxiety and all of that, and it can stir up a lot of emotions. So, if I give you an exercise to do, like maybe just move the horse around the arena and see what happens.

And if you come on really strong, you're going to send the horse away because their fight or flight kicks in and they're like, Oh, too big, too much. I'm going to go over here. It may cause them to run around a little bit more excitedly. And I may ask you what's coming up for you.

And where, and like, Oh, the horse doesn't like me,  I really want to, you know, so

Kristina: That's the first thought that went through my head. The horse doesn't like me. I keep trying to pet the horse. I keep like, doing baby talk, come here and the horse isn't coming. The horse doesn't like me.

Sue: The horse doesn't like me. So that opens up a whole bunch of open-ended coaching questions for sure. And then I would ask them where that comes up for them, in their life outside of the arena and, where do they feel that in their body? Where do they feel that discomfort or that pain or that anxiety?

Where is it manifesting itself in their body? And a lot of times people are so  not in touch with their physical being, right? Cause we spend a lot of time in our heads and it's all the stories. The horse doesn't like me, the horse, right? All the stories start spilling out. It's like, okay, let's just bring it back in.

Let's just stop for a moment and take a deep breath.  Where is that coming up for you? Where do you feel it? And a lot of times they'll come back with a word or an emotion, but not a feeling.  So, when, stop and think about that, you know, oh, I feel heat in my stomach, or I feel pressure in my chest.

Okay. Let's work with that feeling and see how you can sit in that space of whatever it is, if it's people pleasing or, be able to recognize that when you go out into the world, right? And how you can have that say, Oh, okay. Oh, I'm going into a situation. I need to be able to regulate that feeling or at least honor it.

I would say more than regulate it. Honor what you're feeling, in your body. Right. And you can tell where it's coming from.  So then when they loosen up and are actually in their body, then they're not as much worried about if the horse likes them or if the horse is going to let them come over.

And then they can take that experience that they had with the horse and take it back out into their life. Now, obviously, they're not going to overcome this in one session, but they can walk away with some tools that will help them understand and build that awareness. I think the biggest thing that horses have given me personally, and my clients, is that awareness, right?

It all starts with awareness. What am I really doing?  Does that person really not like me or is it just me telling a story and why do I have to, make sure everybody else is okay before, Why do I put on everyone else's oxygen mask before I put my own on?

Kristina: Yeah. I mean, when I did equine therapy, what I noticed was how quickly we got to the root of my issues. It was lightning speed because the horse basically told us what the issues were.

Sue: Great for boundaries as well. 

Kristina: Yeah. Tell us more about that. Tell us a story about that. 

Sue: Well, so for boundaries, I think the horses will either get in your space and they, once again, it comes back to that whole leadership thing. And that's why being really good at teaching leadership to people is because like I said, they're looking for you to be the leader. And if you're not, they're going to get in your space in a heartbeat and they're big. And, you know, my horse, he tries to push me around all the time and I have to be like, “Hey, back off!" But most people don't feel like they can do that because they're afraid that they're going to offend the horse or scare the horse.

But horses want you to tell them where to be and how to back off. For example, if someone's in there and the horse is just like crowding them or maybe, sometimes the horses knows you or, um, not in a friendly way. I mean, if somebody goes up in the horse, just like cuddles them, which the horse will do if they feel that that's what the person needs.

If the horse is aggressive, you know, pushing them, like with their head and their horses, a horse's head is big. I've been hitting my head by a horse's head. It doesn't feel good. Uh, they'll get in your space. And if people are just sort of brushing it off, like it's not a big deal. It gives me an opportunity to say, Hey, what's going on?

And they say, it's kids cute. He just wants to nuzzle me. Oh, grab your jacket and like trying to take a bite out of it. Is that okay with you? Well, no, it's fine. It's fine.  You know, so that kind of can bring up a whole boundary conversation

Kristina: And it's like in your face, right? Like, literally physically, but emotionally also like in every way, if you're that person in the arena, and I'm saying to you, Sue, oh, you know, the horse is nibbling on my jacket and is pulling on my jacket, but it's okay.

And then you're like, is it okay? And then all of a sudden, I'm like, No, it's not. No, it's not. No, it's not. So, it's interesting. Like, I just want to kind of think about this for a minute, a little bit more is that, why was it that equine therapy was so effective for me versus.  It's talk therapy.

And I wonder if it had something to do with some physical aspects to it and, it's incorporating, there's, there's a lot of action involved...

Sue: The beauty of being with a horse in, and like you said, you can cut to the chase a lot more quickly because when you're in talk therapy, you can tell the other person whatever you want.

And, yes, there is body language that they can read, but like I said, the horse is a really good feedback loop because they're not judging you. But they're also very honest and they expect you to be very honest and they're going to call you out if you're not honest, they will call you out.

Like I said, Oh, you got some boundary issues. Well, let me get in your space and you tell me how much you like my 1200 pounds stepping on your feet and poking you. and it gets very much in your face and you're like, okay, that does not feel good. Okay. Well, when someone is doing that to you out in the real world, do you let them?

Yes, I do.

Kristina: Yeah, a lot of people do. Yeah.

Sue: Why? Why do you do that? Why do you?  If this feels uncomfortable here, why do you allow it in your personal life?  So that's why it's so effective is because like you said, it gets people back in their bodies, they're getting real time feedback from an objective third party.

And, they have an observer who is going like, yeah, tell me what's going on now. What's going on for you? It's funny too that people will come in with one intention and you get right down to the real issue.

Kristina: Okay. So are you saying that sometimes people will come in and maybe give you a false agenda and then they get in-

Sue: Maybe not false-

Kristina: Yeah. And then you get in the ring and it's, and it's something totally different. Yeah. And it may not be false. Maybe, that's pretty harsh.

Sue: It's kind of high level-

Kristina: Maybe we, I think maybe sometimes we don't even know what our issues are, right?

Sue: Right. You may tell me what you think the issue is. And then the horse will peel back a few layers and then all of a sudden, it's like, Oh, okay.  Now that the issue is something different and it may not be something different, but it's something at a much deeper level that they may not have wanted to deal with.

Kristina: Wow. Yea. This is really, really good because I think it's providing us with a huge amount of clarity as to not only what this type of therapy is, but you know, why it works and how different it is. There's reasons why it's very effective and it really peels back all those layers because those horses, they're not judgmental. They don't care, but they are just going to tell you like it is.

Yeah.

Sue: Cause they're taking care of themselves and they're just being and that's why part of my coaching logo is Awaken A Life Worth Being because that's what horses do. They're just there.

They're just present. They're taking care of themselves. They're assessing what's going on around them. They have an amazing amount of emotional agility where one minute they can be frightened and they may spook and run away. And then they're like, Oh, I'm fine. And then they go back to grazing.

Right? So, they run through those. Whereas we don't do that right? We're like, this thing happened and, and then you got to tell 25 people and then you got to talk about it for the next six months and you just, and then you make up a crazy story about it or just don't do that. So, they're really good at teaching you some emotional agility.

 Kristina: I love that, that they teach, yeah, just, and just let it go and just being around them, even just feeding them or, grooming them or, you know, like the things that I used to do, just go to the barn and groom them for a while or take them out on a lead rope and walk, go for a little walk or something.

I mean, I was blessed to be near a barn that just, Let me do that. But I think that the horses were teaching me all of these things about living in the present, being unapologetically myself, not having an agenda. And also allowing me to be in a safe space where I wasn't being judged by anybody or anything.

Sue: And they will also hold space for you. I'm curious if you felt that.

Kristina: Absolutely.

Sue: They'll hold, they'll hold space for you. And it's, you know, when you're not, in a good place and you're around a horse and you don't even have to do anything, like sometimes I'll just go and I'll just, you know, sit in the arena with him, uh, with my horse moose, uh, or just any horse and just.

Just sit there with them and listen to them eat , you know, make those noises. And there's just something very soothing about their energy. 

Kristina: I totally agree. Totally calms you down.

Yeah. So, tell us more about if people are curious about working with you. I know that you're outside of Seattle in a smaller town and people can't necessarily work with you in person. Do you have other ways of working with you? How does all that work? 

Sue: I do online coaching as well, and I bring so much of the horse wisdom that we've been talking about. I think also being around horses so much, I have absorbed their ability to not necessarily be a better judge because I'm not judging people, but just to understand, and feel and sense, people, and make better connections, even if it's remotely.  So, I do one-on-one coaching with people online. I do some group coaching. I have a group coaching program. And then I also have retreats periodically in California, in Arizona, even in Washington. Sometimes in Washington, I can do a one-day retreat or a half day retreat because I'm not traveling that far.

I work with a couple of rescue organizations and it's a group thing where people come for four hours or eight hours and they're fully immersed. We do one on one coaching and everybody else gets to watch other people's sessions, which. I know it sounds like, Oh, I don't want somebody watching my session, but you learn so much and you can really identify with the person that's what they're going through.

And you're like, oh my God, I'm having that same thing. So, I don't know, you know, when you did the thing at Marival, it was a group thing where you might have been-

Kristina: Some of it was. Yeah. It's the same experience and I've actually done one group retreat where it was similar, where each person talked to the entire group individually with the leader, but the entire group got to hear and listen to the whole session.

I was mortified, but like what you said, everybody has this underlying current. We all have the same issues and it's amazing what we all learn from each other. And it's actually very, very beneficial.

Sue: It is, it is. And it's really fun, especially if I have a multi-day retreat, because I'll partner with a good friend and coach of mine down in California. We'll have a group of people and we kind of split the group. So, one person will have people in the round pen and another person may be doing a herding exercise or something, or just observation. Then the groups will come back together and it's just, it's so fun to watch the participants bond as well during the two to three days.

By the end, it's like everybody's hugging each other and they're like, Oh my God, and then they stay friends. It's also fun to watch the arc of when people come in, in a group like that, and usually they don't know each other, or maybe a couple of people will come together and a couple more will come together, but it's fun to watch the people that are the most resistant, I would say. When they come in, they're like, Oh, this horse thing, skeptical maybe, or whatever. This is stupid. By the end, they're the ones that have had the most growth. It's really interesting.

Kristina: Wow. That's really great to know because obviously for people that are in the Seattle area or within a driver, so they can work with you in person, but it's also great to know that if they really want to connect with you, you've got retreats that are several days, which was basically what I was doing at Miraval to it was several days.

It's just life changing that kind of experience. So with that being said. Please let my listeners know how they can connect with you. 

Sue: I'm on Instagram. It's Sue_Willoughby. And there's lots of fun stuff there. Moose does a Monday Moose minute every week. He's my horse and he likes to share his wisdom every week. You can go to my website, which is WilloughbyCoaching.com. And Kristina will probably put that in the show notes.

Kristina: It'll be in the show notes for sure. Yeah. Yeah. Any last words, Sue, any last words of advice or wisdom that you would like to leave with my listeners?

Sue: I would just say that whether you're with a horse or don't feel like you have to do things alone, seek out something that resonates with you, or coach or some sort of support, and just enjoy the process and just I guess, commit. Enjoy the journey because that's really what it's all about.

There's so many amazing things and we do have all of those tools to get beyond things already inside of us. We just have to kind of crack the code and pull them out. So...

Kristina: Beautifully said. This has been such an enlightening conversation.  Sue, for not only being here but also for really breaking things down and explaining them in such an easy, understandable way so that people can really understand what you do and why it works and how it works. Thank you so much.

Sue: Yeah, thank you Kristina. I really appreciate you having me on here to talk about my work.

She’s Brave Outro:

Hey everyone, thanks so much for taking time out of your busy life to listen to today's episode. I love learning about what makes you brave.  

I'm here with you, I see you, I hear you, and I want to hear from you. I want to know how you're showing up as being brave and authentic.  

Connect with me on Instagram at She's Brave Podcast or come join our community in the She's Brave Podcast Facebook group.

I'm sending you so much love. Until next time, keep being brave!